Proposed Deletion of the Forum

[Bucketfel]

Dear Members,

I've been recently approached by a close representative from Merzbow with deep concerns about this forum. In a very short private conversation with the twitter user "merzbot" he expressed a lot of concern in regards to what is being discussed in this forum. He mentioned that the forum was terrible and that "We can't stand ungrounded gossips spread around". This was said in relation to a specific thread involving Jenny Akita's involvement in Merzbow's life. Since he brought it up to my attention immediately, i responded quickly and erased the thread while also apologizing for the issue as i did not know it was a sensitive subject to be discussed. (Please do not talk about her anymore in this forum)

The user continued to explain that "Your forum is harmful to our friends and family", meaning that the threads housed within this forum have had some negative impact on Merzbow's inner circle. However, i failed to see how is it that threads here were having such a harmful impact Merzbow's inner circle being that we mostly talk about albums, tours, and noise music in general. He subsequently asked if i could please delete the entire forum because of this issue.

This was alarming news to me because it is the first time anything like this happens. I decided to try and defend the forum by explaining what the point of the forum was all about (a space for fans to enjoy their shared love for noise music and Merzbow) and how i've tried to keep the place clean of illegal downloads and such and how it was just a misunderstanding of a single thread that shouldn't encompass the entire forum. To which i received a reply in which the twitter user explained "Please just close, we don't have time to read through your forum".

I tried to ask if there was any way we could reach a middle ground where we could keep the forum running for all fans while still avoiding topics of discussion which Merzbow might deem "gossipy" or that they would otherwise negatively impact his or his inner circle's lives. The reply i received from Merzbow's representative was quite uninviting and not suitable for any sort of dialogue as he promptly communicated in our private conversation that my idea for a guideline of topics was not in their interests by writing "Why do we have to give you any information? Now you are just annoying to us!" and then proceeded to publicly denounce my twitter feed "MerzbowNews" as an unofficial feed run by someone they don't know (both in Japanese and English). This was more effort than they spent denouncing their second issue, the twitter feed of user "Masami Akita" which is also unrelated to Merzbow, who Merzbow's representative used only one tweet to advice people not to follow that account.

The private conversation between me and Merzbow's representative ended with "We don't want to have any relation with you, please leave us". To which i decided to bring the subject to you guys, the users.



So, do you guys think it would be best to disband the forum in accordance to Merzbow's wishes or do you think it should remain where it is?


I have told the representative that i would raise the issue with you guys and return with an answer so i set a poll on this thread so gauge where the conversation is headed towards.

[neokorosu]

Masami Akita is an artist, which is known by all enthusiasts of experimental music. At least in this circle, he is a public person. And this is a normal sideeffect when you are public person, that other people are talking about you. I can understand Merzbot's point about gossip. But I think that the gossip part in this forum is very low. Most threads are about Akita's works and I wouldn't say that this a reason to close the forum. The forum is one of many platforms for us fans. And a important aspect of being a fan is, to communicate with other people with the same mindset.
Closing down the forum would degrade us from fans to pure consumers. According to the slogan "Buy the album, but don't talk about it!"
It would take the fanbase apart. As a fan, it makes me sad that Akita is apparently annoyed by us.

We do nothing bad when we talk about his works. When we are strictly creating factual topics, I see no reason to close the forum.

[Bucketfel]

I think the whole issue was blown out of proportion from the start. I asked for a reason why and i was not given one. They only pointed to that one thread which was deleted immediately. I had no problem doing that because i understood his point of it propagating rumors of a personal nature. But i think that it was incorrect to overgeneralize an entire forum based on one single thread. Im not an irrational guy, i try to accommodate everyone's interests as best as i can whenever they are within the margins of reason, and as much as i respect the artist and those who represent him, they provided no real reason for the deletion of the forum.

I think that most of all is that they claimed that all threads are gossipy yet they told me they don't have time to read all of them. They just overgeneralized and when i asked them to meet me in the middle (that being a set of banned topics of some sorts) they really were against the idea.

I know the man is not really a fan of social media, and i understand that and appreciate it, that is his prerogative. But i decided to try and engage with fans and share the love we all have for his music. Even when i started, i absolutely never claimed to be Merzbow in any way, shape, or form, and when people were confused, i took the time to clarify that i wasn't him in a direct manner.

I dont like to gossip or anything, i think from this point on, threads that border on personal nature of the artist itself will be removed because he showed concern about that. Enough concern to contact me and deal with it (albeit his way was a tad more extreme). Things like his marital status or if he uses drugs would be a no no. But topics in direct relation to his music (PETA, sadomasochism, all other album) would be allowed as they are an influence heard in the music.

-----

As a fan though, i feel very sad. I started the twitter account and the forum just to share a common interest we all have. Something that fans can use to be up to date with all the stuff happening (multiple album releases, tour dates, etc..), which we have to admit, he does a lot throughout the year and it is hard to keep track of. I saw that there was a need to engage with other fans that wasn't being met, and it still ins't, but this wasn't a bad idea.
We have our own little group here that likes to talk about the music and even some labels have used it to engage with fans like Hypnagogia for the Merzcow releases, Cold Spring Records, Rainbow Bridge, Rare Noise Records, and Rustblade. RareNoise was even kind enough that they wanted to organize a contest to get some freebies. Never came into fruition, but I mean, that to me is amazing. People (and even labels) are engaging and having fun with this, the word is spreading and people have a space to enjoy each others joy for Merzbow's music.

And the twitter feed was just another way to engage with people. And they always liked it. I kept people up to date with new albums, tour dates, funny pictures, i even organized my own contests of free albums paid with my own money through my twitter account just to engage with people. I did it because it was a fun way to share with the community. And once again, there was no complains. Until yesterday. Then everything went to shit. And it made me feel like shit. Years of trying to get people involved turned to shit in the span of 12 hours.
Now I've been told I'm annoying to Merzbow's people (probably Merzbow himself too), was blocked by "merzbot" (now renamed as "MerzbowOfficial"), tweeted against twice in two languages, claiming that I'm an dubious individual that they don't know well (even though we've had a brief conversation before), and now a post on Merzbow's blog where I'm basically called an impostor who goes to publicly misinform and impersonate Merzbow.

All i ever tried to do was to make people happy.

[neokorosu]

I agree with you to 100%, Bucketfel.
And I don't understand why Akita's representative is so uncooperative. I would really like to know the reason for deleting the forum.
I can't imagine for what they are hoping for. The forum or your Twitter-service are strong tools for promoting Merzbow.
He would cut into his own flesh, when he would abolish services like these.

[Bucketfel]

May 9, 2014 16:49:26 GMT -5 neokorosu said:

I agree with you to 100%, Bucketfel.
And I don't understand why Akita's representative is so uncooperative. I would really like to know the reason for deleting the forum.
I can't imagine for what they are hoping for. The forum or your Twitter-service are strong tools for promoting Merzbow.
He would cut into his own flesh, when he would abolish services like these.

From a previous conversation with "MerzbowOfficial" he said that Merzbow hates social networking and that a representative does it for him. I think as a response to my twitter feed because when i started he did not had any official facebook page or twitter.
When i talked to him the first time, i even offered my account to him because i already had some followers when he was just starting. Hell, if he wants my account im happy to give it to him right now. But the "MerzbowOfficial" feed is not engaging, it posts a couple of things over and over (the rumination song on youtube, "save me merzbow" seal picture, and links to Merzbow's official website and soundcloud). It isn't very engaging with any audience.

But people dont be mad at him. It is a personal decision not to engage in social media, and it should be respected. But that doesn't mean i couldn't fill the void with an account that has never proclaimed to be the artist.
If anything, i think there was an error in communication and translation and something fell in the cracks there which made people jump into illogical conclusions. But whatever really happened doesn't really matter. Probably labels for future releases will be prohibited for engaging with us an stuff like that.
In any case, i always welcome open discussion and if he or his representatives would like to open a line of dialog, im happy to reach a common middle ground that would make everyone happy. As long as it is a line of dialogue and not a command.

[acsenger]

I can't believe this crap! It's absolutely ridiculous! Bucketfel, this might be a silly question, but is this person who says they're Akita's representative really that, or is there a chance they're not?
But even if they are and this shenanigans reflects Akita's will, I just don't get the whole point. Fair enough that personal issues shouldn't be discussed, I also think such topics should be left alone -- although, if memory serves me right, all the topic about Jenny Akita was about was whether she might be his wife. It didn't go further than that, into Hollywood gossip-style territory, from what I can remember. Still, it's fair enough to ask not to discuss this or similar topics again. But to delete the whole forum, when this person even admits they haven't read it in full?! Bucketfel, in my opinion you shouldn't feel bad for a moment about this whole issue -- Merzbow has had an enormous impact in a particular genre of music for more than 30 years and if, in light of this, he finds it unreasonable and even annoying that there is a forum on the net with a handful or participants who in 99% of the topics discuss his music, and they clearly voice either positive or at most a mildly negative opinion about it, then I must say it's his own problem and he can't force the forum to close. I mean, we're not here to hate Merzbow, to talk s*** about his music, so I just can't see the point of this resentment! I don't like social media either, I hate gossiping, but a forum consisting of reasonable fans hardly falls into the negative aspects of social media!
I still have (perhaps unreasonably) my doubts about whether this is really Akita's wish. If so, however, I think it's worth keeping in mind people are complex and no one is perfect. While we may admire someone's musical output, we do not know that person and know very little about him/her otherwise. Sometimes, we might be better off that way. I've heard stories about experimental musicians that, if true, don't exactly shed a positive light on them as a person. And I've repeatedly read Miles Davis wasn't a nice person either, but even if that's true, if you like him, it's because of his music and not for anything else. This forum is and, in my opinion, has always been a forum about Merzbow's music, with some harmless exceptions. If those exceptions are cut out (and they will be, as Bucketfel says), I don't see a reason it should be shut down, whether Akita let alone his alleged "circle" likes it or not.

[Bucketfel]

May 9, 2014 19:05:05 GMT -5 acsenger said:

I can't believe this crap! It's absolutely ridiculous! Bucketfel, this might be a silly question, but is this person who says they're Akita's representative really that, or is there a chance they're not?
But even if they are and this shenanigans reflects Akita's will, I just don't get the whole point. Fair enough that personal issues shouldn't be discussed, I also think such topics should be left alone -- although, if memory serves me right, all the topic about Jenny Akita was about was whether she might be his wife. It didn't go further than that, into Hollywood gossip-style territory, from what I can remember. Still, it's fair enough to ask not to discuss this or similar topics again. But to delete the whole forum, when this person even admits they haven't read it in full?! Bucketfel, in my opinion you shouldn't feel bad for a moment about this whole issue -- Merzbow has had an enormous impact in a particular genre of music for more than 30 years and if, in light of this, he finds it unreasonable and even annoying that there is a forum on the net with a handful or participants who in 99% of the topics discuss his music, and they clearly voice either positive or at most a mildly negative opinion about it, then I must say it's his own problem and he can't force the forum to close. I mean, we're not here to hate Merzbow, to talk s*** about his music, so I just can't see the point of this resentment! I don't like social media either, I hate gossiping, but a forum consisting of reasonable fans hardly falls into the negative aspects of social media!
I still have (perhaps unreasonably) my doubts about whether this is really Akita's wish. If so, however, I think it's worth keeping in mind people are complex and no one is perfect. While we may admire someone's musical output, we do not know that person and know very little about him/her otherwise. Sometimes, we might be better off that way. I've heard stories about experimental musicians that, if true, don't exactly shed a positive light on them as a person. And I've repeatedly read Miles Davis wasn't a nice person either, but even if that's true, if you like him, it's because of his music and not for anything else. This forum is and, in my opinion, has always been a forum about Merzbow's music, with some harmless exceptions. If those exceptions are cut out (and they will be, as Bucketfel says), I don't see a reason it should be shut down, whether Akita let alone his alleged "circle" likes it or not.

The twitter feed i talked to is linked directly by Merzbow's official site and in the most recent post as well. I think the webmaster in charge of the feed tried to relay the message as best as he could but i think something got a bit lost in translation. Hence why there was a lack of courtesy in the first place.
I think however that it was in fact Merzbow's wishes that this place was to be shut down.

In any case, i hope this doesn't impact your interest in his music. I dont really care about the person behind the music (unless it is spoken about in a particular album), i care only about the music.

[neokorosu]

Bucketfel, you are closing your Twitter-account?!
It is a question of time untill this forum will close...

[Bucketfel]

May 13, 2014 14:17:08 GMT -5 neokorosu said:

Bucketfel, you are closing your Twitter-account?!
It is a question of time untill this forum will close...

I am closing it because now Merzbow's team is going out of their way to impede me from doing what I usually do. Just today two labels contacted me through twitter on behalf of Merzbow. He was displeased by the use of images on my feed. Hospital Hill asked me to remove the Kookabura banner which I had displayed to advertise the album while Cold Spring Records asked me to remove the upcoming Nezumimochi cover from my profile picture.
Additionally Rustblade and Cold Spring have twitted their followers that "@merzbowofficial" is the ONLY official source of Merzbow information.
Probably other labels were asked to do the same and maybe future labels will be asked to ban me or otherwise not let me post information about their Merzbow releases.

It all honestly impedes me from doing what I've always done and there are a million ways to circumvent the stone wall Merzbow is building around me. But I won't put a label at risk here. They have done nothing wrong and neither will I put them in harms way. They are just trying to sell their respective albums. That's it.

Because of all of this I'd rather not fight this anymore. It is not worth it. For me at least. Personally I'm worned down and depressed about the issue and just as a fan in general. I tried to do something nice for all of us, on my free time, with my resources (financial and otherwise) so that everyone could share their love for merzbow.

I think that weighting the pros and cons so far, I think that the pros heavily outweight the cons. People shared, had fun, and embraced each other as a community of amazing people. Labels benefitted of this by engaging too and hopefully this transformed too on profits for them in the sense of more copies sold which amazes me so much that we can do that. Labels and some artosts have gone out of their way to thank me for it. Finally I feel so proud that I connected to so many lives and do something nice for them. I've always firmly believed in doing good things for the rest.

At the end the artist is the one that gets the fruits of what happens here and not even once in the time this whole storm is happening, has he even been remotely appreciative of what I did. Not a shred of respect either. I shouldn't have any respect left for him, yet I do, otherwise the entire conversation we had would be public knowledge. But that is not who I want to be. I don't want to feel like im scum any more. I'd rather just focus on other things.

The forum is not mine, it's all of us. If you choose to keep it alive then it will stay this way. I'll police it like I've always done. But from now on I think we are going to be stonewalled (if we haven't already) by labels and the artist himself

[acsenger]

I still can't believe the fuss about this forum. I've been pretty active here for a good while and for the life of me, I can't remember anything out of line.
While for a long time only a couple people have been using this forum (sadly), I think it should keep going, with or without the support it might have had until now.

[ashessehsa]

I feel more or less the same way acsenger. I don't recall seeing too much on this forum that is outside the realm of what is appropriate for a fan forum. I understand Masami not wanting people to speculate about his personal life. That is more than a fair concern. By the same token, it's one of those things you make yourself vulnerable to when you're an artist to his degree; people who like your work will gather together and sometimes speculate about the person behind the art. I'm not saying what may have been said is appropriate or fair because Merzbow is such an established project, but it's just a thing that's going to happen.

I have mixed feelings about removing the forum. On the one hand, removing the whole thing because of a few "rotten" posts seems heavy handed. On the other, regardless of the intentions of the users here, there are those who are reacting negatively to it. Removing it on that basis does seem compelling. But I just can't shake the feeling that that seems unnecessary.

I understand there not wanting to be speculation about anyone's personal lives, and I understand completely concerns regarding the digital dissemination of his works. But this place is really not about those things, even though those things have happened. It's about the music. And, I think, to the extent that this forum stays about the music, it should stick around. It just seems unlikely to me that this place has directly caused so much damage that it should be removed. As far as I've always understood this place, it's just been about people with a shared interest in Merzbow coming together to discuss what it means to them. After all, everyone experiences things a little bit differently, and it's interesting to hear what takes people have on work we all enjoy. I really don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that.

But, if this forum really has directly and inadvertently caused a significant amount of damage, I can see there being a case for its removal. It just doesn't seem likely to me that this community is as damaging as it has been regarded, especially considering how relatively inactive it's been as of late.

[ashessehsa]

ALSO I don't know who was responsible for having a twitter account under his name, but that is a poor decision. Anything done by fans should be clearly noted so, and posting under his name is a terrible idea.

[Bucketfel]

Maybe you guys can form a new user friendly space on reddit.

www.reddit.com/r/merzbow/ seems quite empty

[thegossiper]

I was the user whose posts Merzbow reacted to. Not this username - but "japanesebird".

I haven't even been here in months but just happened to visit today hoping to hear of new exciting Merzbow albums. Instead I see this, the forum being shut down because of my posts, because Merzbow and his people don't like them.

Well, sorry for having some humor and curiosity in things. I don't see why I can't inquire into Akita's lifestyle, he's talked about it in interviews and even written a book on his diet and related lifestyle. Why can't I raise questions here? As for the stuff about his wife - get a sense of humor, Akita. Couldn't handle a lite joke about tying your wife up even though you're known just as much for bondage association as noise music?

This has upset me as a fan and annoyed me as a believer in free expression. He probably wants the forum shut down to limit sharing of new releases and others still in sales, but I'm sure reading my threads was the icing on the cake for them.

Now I will feel uncomfortable listening to Merzbow in future. I feel that their reaction to the webmaster here is really towards me, for the nature of my posts. I raised questions about drug use, among other things. And I stand by it, I think it's totally valid to wonder whether Akita ever used drugs and what role they played in the formation of his views on art and noise music. He is just a control freak and prude wanting to control his image by the sparse details he releases in interviews.

How many people even come here? Everyone I've mentioned Merzbow to considers it a joke of the most ridiculous kind. By insulting us, his fans, he is putting down the very people who allow him to be "Merzbow the famous noise musician". We're the ones who like and get his music. We want to discuss it or thoughts related to it.

[thegossiper]

Perhaps deleting all of "japanesebird's" posts would remedy the tension with them? If you needed permission, I give it. I don't care.

Akita shows weakness by giving a shit about this.

*ryunosuke from sword of doom subtle eye flash seeing weakness in samurai opponent*

[Bucketfel]

This is not directly related to one person. I think the issue at stake here is not the forum itself but rather than in the cultural barrier between Japan and Western methods of communication, the free use of this forum as a way to inquire about all sorts of topics is quite intrusive in Japanese culture. We all share a sense of wanting things to be private, even artists, to a degree. I think that it was mostly an issue of misinterpretation and miscomunication in its translation. What started as no harm, no foul topics of discussion ended up being translated into detailed enquires about his life. And the icing of the cake is the bad translation of what it means to be on a user forum. We do not pretend to know the truth. We only talk to each other about our crazy and ridiculous theories.

Im not erasing "japanesebird"'s posts. It is not your fault. And try not to take it too personally. I am trying to get over it and not to let the person affect the artist if you know what i mean. You should try to do the same.

Also, the forum is not closing.